Your comment here... + 
This is the logo for the New Jerusalem Talmud site. The New Jerusalem Talmud site is an innovative approach to discourse about important issues. Examples are Population Control, Abortion, Iran, Evolution, Economics, Meat Money. If you are interested in joining the discussion register and have your say.  
Population: Birth and the Earth

Bookmark and Share   Click here to register for the newjerusalemtalmud.com site.

  This is the logo for the New Jerusalem Talmud. More SEO info should be included in this tag.
Condom, pill, other methods, ending with vasectomy or 'tubes tied'? The first commandment in the bible is to 'be fruitful and multiply'.  Does that conflict with using birth control? Is it religiously responsible to use birth control? Is it ecologically responsible to not use birth control? SJ: + 
A midrash that Adam spent 130 years spilling seeds (related to his 'sin') This fallen seed was reincarnated in [slavery in] Egypt:   GG: + 
Ben David (the Messiah) won't come until all the 'neshamot' (souls) have been incarnated in bodies: Generations from the seeds/ Zera: So having more kids is a way to speed the coming of the Messiah (moshiach):  BE: + 
However is that descriptive or prescriptive-- is merely it an observation, that all the souls have to come through bodies for the redemption to come, or is it a prescription to speed up the process by having more children regardless of context? MO: + 
Relevant essay to this discussion is Mopsik's 'Body of Engenderment' MO: + 
Purpose of creation is not just to be alive and do no harm/ use no resources, but tikun? ('fixing'): Souls come back into bodies to do their tikun-- we are each important: Seeing the world as static or dynamic EM: + 
Your comment here... + 
Potlatch: Abundance thinking as potential not as actual: Abundance means there can be enough for everybody: MM: + 
Amartya Sen: Famine is political: Not about food but money and distribution: MO: + 
[Improvements in] modern medicine: people with birth defects and diseases can live more & longer: society's morality--are less likely to be abandoned at birth: EM: + 
People are not equal in impact: Environmental footprint of One American = 50 Bolivians e.g... Developed use more resources than undeveloped countries, however developing countries have lower pollution standards and are where forests are being cut down. MO: + 
Ecological time vs. human time: Last 200 years accelerated impacts and change, due to industrial revolution, sanitation, medicine: SJ: + 
There is a tendency for western, ecologically-minded people to harshly judge traditional peoples & cultures for valuing life/ birth differently, whether developing countries or tribal societies or religious Muslims or Christians or Jews who are choosing to have higher birthrates. ID: + 
When discussing whether people/ cultures/ countries should control their birthrate with ecological constraints in mind, how much do we get to control our reality or others' actions? Who would or should have the power to do so, no matter how well-meaning? [cf. Categorical imperative] SJ: + 
Your comment here... + 
Contributors:
RL:Ranger Ludd, BE:Betzalel Edwards, EM:Eliyahu McLean, ID:Irene Diamond, GG:Gershon Gottlieb
Ecological science and environmentalism tend to accept a model that puts human birth in conflict with the well-being of the earth.
Add a comment to the disscussion... + 

'Pru R'Vu' Go forth and multiply--how does that relate to access to and use of Birth Control?  SJ: + 
In times of famine there's a halacha to stop sex in order to not be giving birth BE: + 
Infanticide in tribal societies and Abortion in modern west to control population. Empowering women: [freedom of] choice: Wanted vs. unwanted children. MM: + 
[As Shaul's student said,] Nature's beautiful & perfect, humans just destroy it-- So why am I alive?: With that attitude, do humans 'belong' or see ourselves as belonging? SJ: + 
This breeds hopelessness, belief in Apocalyptic eco crisis: But what underlies it is Nihilism & Existentialism, not necessarily facts: ID: + 
It's like the highest ideal of such environmental thinking/ activism is, it's Brave to commit suicide! [--so as to 'save' the earth from one's own consumption etc.] SJ: + 
Roots of [this kind of] environmentalism, secular & scientific values/ reductionism [which see humans as somehow objective/ separate from nature, superfluous to the wholeness of creation] are in rationalism (Greece/Yavan) and in Christianity: Christians consider humans to be born in sin [blemishes on creation?]: Jesus was the ultimate self-sacrifice [and bravest act, in that way of thinking]: Crucifixion was the ultimate infanticide? SW: + 
Thus in that story God sacrificed his own son: [this relates to the] Akeida, Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac: In both stories--an idea of canceling oneself out, like death is more real than life.  Is that underlying such environmental thinking? MO: + 
Your comment here... + 
Our context/ assumption: yes there's a world crisis: ecological, spiritual, capitalism/ material: ID: + 
Zero Population Growth (ZPG): People becomes a population- number?: scientific reductionism: The_Population_Bomb (Bestselling 1968 book predicting Malthusian catastrophe as a result of approaching world overpopulation based on current rates of growth.) SJ: + 
Demographic reductionism dominates the population/resources model--this is a mistake. The relationship between the number of people and the impact on the environment is not so simple. Are humans even 'separate' from the natural world/ environment? ID: + 
Is ecological science dominated by conceptions of scarcity? Are ecosystems stable in any way that can be 'preserved'? Can an approach of abundance serve both science and human needs? MM: + 
Daniel Quinn's 'Takers' and 'Leavers' relevant: Does Quinn accept that human birth and the well-being of the earth are opposed?: Eve 'Hava' is the gift of life: Life without limit?: SJ: + 
This is a telling difference between roots Judaism and roots Christianity. The sacrifices are paralleled - but only one is actually carried out.  MO: + 
Your comment here... + 
In 'primitive' societies which practice infanticide, and in modern western societies with access to abortion-on-demand, arguably about the same number of children are born from all conceptions.   As opposed to agricultural societies until the modern west-- much higher birthrate and less freedom for women to choose to bear and raise children. See Why MM: + 
Jewish population issues: There was a census done in the Torah. Yet it's also forbidden by the Torah to count Jews. GG: + 
Europeans considered there to be 'too many' Jews before the Shoah... Now Jews are worried there is not enough of us (in Israel vs. Arabs, in America wrt Assimilation.) BE: + 
Implicit/unspoken thinking among the ultra-orthodox is to replace Holocaust victims with big families: Haredi mindset 10+ children-- seen as anathema to environmentalists: EM: + 
Haredim moving closer to Christian right: Catholic Pope is famously against birth control, and influential enough to affect world birth-rate: Thus the Pope is seen as against ecological values. ID: + 
When a rural village in India introduced TV, the birth rate went down measurably.  In general, the more education-- esp. a college degree-- is the most reliable predictor of a lower birthrate. This is to suggest that birthrate may be a function of many other sociological factors. MO: + 
Your comment here... + 

How to Read and Use The New Jerusalem Talmud

New Jerusalem Talmud pages are organized/ laid out as 'Dafs', or pages in a unique format guided by the structure of the ancient Jewish Talmud.

  • The middle column at the top starts with a list of the participants/ contributors ('Tanaim').
  • Then, near the top of the middle column in the biggest font, is the "Mishnah": a concise statement of the issue, problem, or controversy.
  • Below that is the "Gemara" or main discussion: distilled, brief phrases encapsulating the most outstanding points and central flow of the discussion.
    • This is not a simple article, summary, or standard text debate; rather, it is something that is probably new to you. The phrases have been chosen, through a lengthy editorial process, to be the essential bones of a deeper exploration of the issue. They require 'learning' rather than just reading: an engaged, often difficult, and ideally partnered ('hevruta') approach: two people sit with the 'daf' in front of them and attempt to understand why each piece was included, and to respond and reflect what they read. The discussion as printed is designed to be incomplete: it requires your participation, through this process of 'learning', to be fully fleshed out, hopefully in a way which provokes you as ''talmidim" to bring your own insights and depth to the issue.
  • To each side are columns- the second and fourth columns- in a slightly smaller font than the middle column.
    • These are 'Rashis' or background/ support/ documentation/ context.
    • They are loosely thematic, filled with the most salient side points, data, or well-established positions relating to the central topic.
    • There are often links to sources on the different sides or perspectives.
    • These can be essential to the discussion, yet are usually not 'chidushim' (original to this debate):
      • rather they are things-you-should-know to really grasp the full contextuality of the main discussion.
  • On the far right and far left are smaller columns with smaller font.
  • These are the 'tosefot' or tangents:
    • interesting and relevant side points,
    • directions for further exploration,
    • anecdotes,
    • and sources or noted thinkers or scholars whose work touches upon the main issue.
  • Once you have registered and logged in, you can join the discussion!
    • Click on 'add a comment to the discussion' in the central column if you want to respond directly to the main issue.
    • Click on 'your comment here' in any other column you would like to add your two cents.
    • Click on the '+' symbol at the end of any existing comment if you would like to respond to it directly.
    • Your comment will be moderated by our editorial staff and should appear shortly.
    • Rather than simply go down indefinitely in one text column like most blogs, your comment will appear where it is most relevant.

One 'learns' a 'daf' of the New Jerusalem Talmud by sitting down and facing the issue, with the page in front of you and a learning partner across from you.

  • The goal is to get beyond the simple polarizations and platitudes that so often define and limit our relationship with major issues.
  • Any real engagement with a major controversy requires nuance, context, and depth; if it was so simple, there would not be a debate at all.
  • There may be more than two sides.
  • There may be several levels of a controversy, levels of understanding it, levels of its impact on individuals, societies, and the planet.
  • Even when one side is outright WRONG about something, the simple fact that they exist necessitates an attempt to understand their perspective and priorities, in order to have a hope for conversation, communication, or accomodation or compromise (or better, ultimately: consensus).

The transcript for this discussion is not yet available.

The video for this discussion is not yet available.